No.1140 (SL)

Sébastien Luce 


Original Problems, Julia’s Fairies – 2016 (II): July – December

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No.1140 Sébastien Luce

original – 07.10.2016

Solutions: (click to show/hide)

white Ka4 Bd5 black Ke5 Bd6 Sb3 Pg8g7e6a3c2

h#3             4 solutions           (2+8)
Take & Make

5 Responses to No.1140 (SL)

  1. Luce Sebastien says:

    I would like to add a comment about the way more logical in my opinion that Winchloe treats the combination T&M + PWC
    Let us see the simple following position :

    White : Kg8, Ph4h5
    Black : Kh6

    White to move stalemates black King by 1.Kh8 ! as the capture of h5 Pawn is impossible as the Pawn rebirths in h6 (PWC effect) prohibiting the move of make of black King.
    If the priority is given to T&M (like in Popeye) there is no more stalemate and the Pawn doesn’t rebirth which seems nonsense in PWC !

  2. Joost de HeerJoost says:

    Why would no rebirth in PWC be nonsense? There are piece/board combinations possible in which a piece captures and ends up on its starting square (hamster-locust for instance, or locust+cylinder). With PWC, this means that the rebirth square is occupied.

  3. Vlaicu Crisan says:

    Let’s do some granular decomposition of how the mix Take&Make and PWC is working together:
    1. Winchloe begins with the “Take” part of the move, then continues with the rebirth of the captured piece and ends with the “Make” part of the move.
    2. Popeye begins with the “Take” part of the move, then continues with the “Make” part of the move and ends with the rebirth (if possible).
    Which interpretation is actually correct?

    In this fortunate case, we have a very detailed definition stated by Hartmut Laue – see Die Schwalbe 229 /2008. The relevant part is given here: “Es ist zu beachten, daß stets erst der take&make-Zug ausgeführt und erst dann über die Wiedergeburt entschieden wird und nicht umgekehrt”.

    According to the above excerpt, we may conclude that Winchloe implementation of Take&Make doesn’t actually respect the requirements as stated by the inventor’s definition.

    However, I wouldn’t say Sebastien’s or Winchloe’s Take&Make interpretations are illogical. To put it simple: they just don’t comply to the inventor’s original invention.

    As this interpretation can lead also to some interesting effects, it could receive it’s own name, say “Take&Make Interrupted” (no pun intended).

  4. Luce Sebastien says:

    To be very honest, Christian Poisson has not the same opinion than me !
    He thinks that the two interpretations (Popeye/Winchloe) are of equal value.

    But gentlemen, you didn’t comment about the little position I give. For you, stalemate or not stalemate ??

  5. Nikola Predrag says:

    In T&M, a piece that makes a capture doesn’t actually play to the square of the capture. It plays across that square to its final square.
    e.g. wBd3xbPb5-b4 means that wB moves from d3 to b4 ACROSS b5 but never playing TO b5 (just as wBd3-a6 across b5 would be possible if there was no bPb5).

    Otherwise, the capturing Pawns would promote before “making” from the “furthest” rank.

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