No.1156 (SKB&VC)

balasubramaniancrisan

 

No.1156


S.K.Balasubramanian (India) & Vlaicu Crișan (Romania)

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Original Problems, Julia’s Fairies – 2016 (II): July – December

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Definitions: (click to show/hide)


No.1156 S.K.Balasubramanian
& Vlaicu Crișan

India / Romania

original – 11.11.2016

Solutions: (click to show/hide)

white Kh4 Bg4 Sg3 Qc1 black Kc5 Qe4 Se3 Bh3 Pc3f6

h#2             2 solutions           (4+6)
Circe
Madrasi
Take & Make


17 Responses to No.1156 (SKB&VC)

  1. Seetharamanseetharaman says:

    Due to take and make, the mating pieces are immune from capture! Hence the shut off from paralysing defence is needed! Very interesting effect. Bala demonstrated a similar effect in Superguards also (see his prize winner).

  2. Vlaicu Crisan says:

    The composition has quite a long history: this version is the 20th. The most difficult part, after reaching to a setting displaying certain unity between the phases, was to ensure the Madrasi effects are not paling compared to the more visible Circe and Take & Make effects. It seems quite hard to achieve the right balance in compositions featuring three (or more!) fairy conditions.

  3. Laco Packa says:

    A matter of definition: Is it in the second solution checkmate? After 3.Kxd1 white Queen is captured on its own Circe-square, so should be removed.

    • Vlaicu Crisan says:

      That’s a very good question! Please check the official Take&Make definition here:
      http://www.dieschwalbe.de/schwalbe229.htm#tnm

      The relevant paragraph is the following:
      3) In the combination take&make-Circe, a Circe rebirth takes place only after the complete take&make move, not immediately after its “take” part.

      • Laco Packa says:

        Now it’s clear. Thank you!

      • Dmitri TurevskiDmitri Turevski says:

        It still depends of the “Circe” definition then, imo.

        Eg http://www.janko.at/Retros/Glossary/Circe.htm

        “When the rebirth square is not empty after the capture, there is no rebirth …”

        Note: “after the capture”, not “after the complete move”

      • Dmitri TurevskiDmitri Turevski says:

        Don’t get me wrong, you are correct, of course, my point is that T&M is not sufficiently well defined, to say the least.

        Also mentioning that combination with Circe should be treated in a specific way implies that combination with other conditions should be treated … exactly how? In “default” way? 🙂

        • Vlaicu Crisan says:

          That’s again a very good question! 🙂

          One possibility I would suggest is to consider each specific case independently and properly name each condition accordingly.

          For instance, when the rebirth occurs instantly after the capture (not after the full move of the capturing piece), then we could call this particular condition as Immediate Circe.

          The second solution of 1156 won’t work with Immediate Circe, as Laco rightly observed, but will still work with [Delayed] Circe.

          This approach has several advantages:
          a) Would also leave more paths to be explored by the composers’ creativity instead of imposing an official dogmatic rule.
          b) Will help the software programmers to eventually get more uniformity in applying the conventions of fairy conditions.
          c) Accepts “versioned” fairy conditions (e.g. Madrasi, AntiCirce, Single Box, Isardam, Take&Make …) by default and not by exception.

          Sorry for the digression!

          • Seetharamanseetharaman says:

            hmm… what happens in combination with anti-circe. Does the make move happen from the rebirth square? If make move happens from capture square only is the anti-circe rebirth ignored?

            • Laco Packa says:

              The sequence of the take-rebirth-make it more logical than take-make-rebirth. However, both are useful and the second of them does not deny the use of Anticirce because the move as a whole is impossible if the rebirth square occupied.

              • Georgy EvseevGeorgy Evseev says:

                From my point of view, take-make-rebirth is more logical, because I feel take-make as move effect, and rebirth as post move effect. But this cannot be confirmed by anything more than feeling.

                • Seetharamanseetharaman says:

                  In combination with anti-circe, it seems to me, that take-rebirth-make is the only sequence applicable.

                  • Laco Packa says:

                    It depends on whether the rebirth square is chosen by take or make part of move. Example: wBe5xRd4 -> Be4. Which rebirth square would be correct: a8 or h8?

  4. Nikola Predrag says:

    The whole point of a new condition is that it’s the INVENTOR who creates the NEW logic of the new system and defines it by rules.
    The intrinsic self-consistency of that logic reveals the specific nature of a condition.

    A different logic would make a different fairy condition. We might discuss the IMPLICATIONS of the INVENTOR’S logic but it’s absurd to discuss the CLEAR meaning of an EXPLICIT rule.

    The specific nature (self-consistent intrinsic logic) of T&M could be explored through some EXPLICIT explanations:

    – capture is impossible if the “make-part” is impossible
    This indicates that a COMPLETE T&M movement is considered BEFORE a “capture” can have a MEANING.

    – NO promotion happens between the “take” and “make” parts of the move
    Again the completeness of a movement comes first.

    – Circe-rebirth comes AFTER the completed movement of the capturing piece

    The mentioned Circe rule:
    -“When the rebirth square is not empty after the capture, there is no rebirth …”-
    says AFTER and not DURING the capture.
    And the capture of some piece is the result of a move made by another piece.

    The relation between the capturing/captured piece resembles the relation of Locust/hurdle.
    The rebirth happens only AFTER the Locust’s movement is completed.

    The “captured piece” serves first as a specific hurdle to the “capturing piece”, determining the complete “make” part and only then is removed.

    The logic of a “hurdle” might apply to a hypothetical condition “MEET&MAKE” where
    – captures are orthodox but a non-capturing move might use an opponent’s piece as a specific “MEET&MAKE” hurdle, e.g.:
    wBa1,bSb2; possible moves by wB
    1.Bxb2 capturing bS
    1.Ba4,Bc4,Bd3,Bd1 without capturing bS

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