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Author Topic: Presentation of a New fairy condition
bargrushko-
@bezeqint.-
net
Visitor
Posts: 1
 Presentation of a New fairy conditionon: April 16, 2015, 09:02

MICHAEL GRUSHKO
NEW !!!
Presentation of a New fairy condition
I propose a new fairy condition:
Super Phantom Chess: Any unit including king may move either normally (from its current square) or as though from its Circe rebirth square if the latter is vacant.
(All conditions Phantom Chess kings plus)

Here is Problem - Example
MICHAEL GRUSHKO
original – 16.04.2015
fairy tournament JF-2015(I)
С+. Popeye -4.65
Stipulation H#2.5
Condition SUPER PhantomChess
Pieces
Black
Neutral Kh4 Pf7 Pe2
A)
nKh4-h3 2.nPe2-e6 nPf7-f8=nQ 3.nQf8-c5 nKh3-e2# 1…
B) nPf7h7
. 1...nKh4-d2 2.nPe2-e1=nR nRe1-a7 3.nKd2-c2 nPh7-h8=nQ#
C) nPe2h2
. 1...nKh4-h3 2.nPh2-h1=nS nPf7-f8=nQ 3.nQf8-g7 nKh3-f1#
D) nPe2c2
1…nKh4-h3 2.nPc2-c1=nQ nPf7-f8=nQ 3.nQf8-f6 nKh3-e2#

The problem with this condition I checked on Popeye 4.65. is a C +. Popeye 4.65 checks with Kings

Geoff-
Foster
Visitor
Posts: 3
 Re: Presentation of a New fairy conditionon: April 17, 2015, 01:16

(a) has no solution, because Black can play 4.Kd1+!

A better name for this condition is "PhantomChess RexInclusive". It exists in Popeye and WinChloe. Here is an example:

Geoff Foster, StrateGems 70 (Apr-Jun 2015)
Stipulation H#2
Pieces
Neutral Kf7 Qe4 Pd7
Condition PhantomChess RexInclusive

1.nQe4-c2 nPd7-d8=nR 2.nRd8-e8 nKf7-e1-f1 #
1.nKf7-g8 + nPd7-d8=nB 2.nQe4-f3 nKg8-e1-d2 #
1.nKf7-g7 nPd7-d8=nQ 2.nQe4-f4 nKg7-e1-e2 #

Nikola-
Predrag
Visitor
Posts: 42
 Re: Presentation of a New fairy conditionon: April 17, 2015, 03:26

I can't find the basic logic consistency of Phantom chess so I repeat the question:
Could wBh3 move to h3 as though from f1? What forbids such a zero move?

Popeye (4.69) does not allow wPh3 to “pass through itself” as h3-h2-h4.
Add a wLion h2 and it can play LIh2-h8-h1, over Pg3 and “through itself”.
But not LIh2-h8-h2 “onto itself”.

Geoff-
Foster
Visitor
Posts: 3
 Re: Presentation of a New fairy conditionon: April 17, 2015, 04:12

Neither Popeye nor WinChloe allow PhantomChess zero moves. This just seems to be a convention (was it stated in the definition of PhantomChess?).

A wPh3 can always play to h4, because it is just a normal (non-Phantom) Pawn move!

A wLion h2 cannot play onto itself, because that would be a zero move. It would not be a capture, because the wLion h8 has already left h2.

Nikola-
Predrag
Visitor
Posts: 42
 Re: Presentation of a New fairy conditionon: April 17, 2015, 05:08

If a zero move is legal according to the inventor of some piece or condition, then both Winchloe and Popeye are wrong. Or, should people already be instructed by the computers as in some SF?
A human tells to computers what to do, not the opposite.

Anyway, what is a zero move for Popeye. I repeat my comment for No.751:
Popeye finds the solution for the following:
White Kc6 Pc4 Qa2 Pc2
Black Ka4 Bb4 Qa3 Bb3
Stipulation H#2
Condition AntiCirce Circe

1.Qa3*a2[bQa2->d8][+wQd1] Qd1*d8[wQd8->d1][+bQd8] 2.Qd8-a5 c2*b3[wPb3->b2][+bBc8] #Popeye finds the solution for the following:
White Kc6 Pc4 Qa2 Pc2
Black Ka4 Bb4 Qa3 Bb3
Stipulation H#2
Condition AntiCirce Circe
1.Qa3*a2[bQa2->d8][+wQd1] Qd1*d8[wQd8->d1][+bQd8] 2.Qd8-a5 c2*b3[wPb3->b2][+bBc8] #
--------

I speak about the Phantom-move wPh3-(h2)-h4 and not about h3-h4. Why is it not allowed by Popeye when it is allowed for the Lion to "pass through itself"?
(For a wPh5, it's allowed to play h5-(h2)-h4.)

Geoff-
Foster
Visitor
Posts: 3
 Re: Presentation of a New fairy conditionon: April 17, 2015, 07:11

Is a zero move legal according to the inventor of PhantomChess? Do you know who the inventor was, so we can ask him?

In practically every case, the move wPh3-(h2)-h4 is equivalent to wPh3-h4. I can think of only one case where the double-step is important. Here is an example.

Stipulation H#1
Pieces
white Kc5 Qc8 Bh4 Pf5
black Ke7 Pg6
Condition PhantomChess

My intended solution is 1.Pg6-(g7)-g5 fxg6 e.p.#, but Popeye and WinChloe don't find this.

Nikola-
Predrag
Visitor
Posts: 42
 Re: Presentation of a New fairy conditionon: April 17, 2015, 14:28

Zero move is a move, it is not skipping a move. So, what might be the reason to forbid such a move? And where can be found the "convention" which forbids it?

First it must be defined what is a move and only then Popeye could claim that zero move is illegal.
A piece departs, travels and arrives - that's what Popeye doesn't apply.
But what definition of a move it does apply?
Why it does allow (wLIh2,wPh3) 1.LIh1 and does not allow 1.LIh2?
Does the Lion depart from h2 before any arrival or not?
---
..." I can think of only one case where the double-step is important"...
---
One case is enough to prove a nonsense.
Put bPg6 to g4 in your example and there is the solution. It seems that what is allowed to a Lion is not allowed to a Pawn- virtually passing through itself.

Joost de-
Heer
Visitor
Posts: 4
 Re: Presentation of a New fairy conditionon: April 29, 2015, 15:31

My interpretation of Phantom chess has always been: The phantom makes a move from the circe rebirth square, and after this phantom move, the original piece is transferred to the phantom square. This also explains why these zero moves aren't possible: the square is occupied by the original piece, so the phantom can't move to this square.

One thing wrong with this interpretation however: can a neutral piece capture itself? Or use itself as a hurdle?

Nikola-
Predrag
Visitor
Posts: 42
 Re: Presentation of a New fairy conditionon: April 29, 2015, 16:23

Yes, that's why an exact definition is needed.
If the real piece occupies the square all the time during the "phantom's move", the consequences have to be accepted or the definition must specify possible exceptions to the "principle".

And why Popeye treats a Lion differently than a Pawn?
How can the program work, without changing the whatever logic?

Joost de-
Heer
Visitor
Posts: 4
 Re: Presentation of a New fairy conditionon: April 29, 2015, 19:43

After playing around with some tests, it looks like Popeye actually moves the piece and then tries the possible moves, disallowing zero moves. Checking the output, it looks like moves that lead to the same position are pruned (try e.g. with whi bh3, stip ~1, cond phantom: Bh3-g2 is printed, Bh3-f1-g2 isn't), which would explain why the move isn't printed. In case of the pawn, this may be either intended (the pawn has moved, and thus its phantom doesn't have the double-step rights), or it may be a bug.

Popeye has a history of ignoring zero-moves (e.g. roses), this may be yet another case.

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