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Thank you for the interest! Your comments are very welcome! – Julia


No.22 – finished 11.01.2012 – This time I have a pair of two Nightriders instead of two Knights I often had before 🙂 . Chinese pieces are also one of my favorite.


No.22
99745 /

Julia Vysotska

Phenix – 2012, No.216, #6495

hs#3       2 solutions         7+9
Leo g2; Pao h1; Vao d8;
Nightrider h4, h3
 

Solutions:

I. 1.Sd4 Nf5 + 2.VAh4 f3 3.LEg4 + Nf4 #

II. 1.Sc5 Nd1 + 2.LEh3 d5 3.VAe7 + Nd6 #

Transformation of initial N-N/PAO battery into two new batteries: LEO-N/PAO and VAO-N/PAO. Opening of lines for the white LEO/VAO with the simultaneous vacation of squares for black pieces (NN), Umnov, change of functions of black pieces (NN) and white pieces (LEO/VAO), creation of masced white anti-batteries, model mates through double checks.

No.22a – Improved version of No.22 based on the comments below, with a gratitude for all advises!
100112 /

Julia Vysotska

Version of No.22

hs#3       2 solutions         7+8
Vao e6; Pao f3, g1;
Nightrider g4, g3
 

Solutions:

I. 1.Sa3-c4 Ng4-e5 + 2.VAe6-g4 e4-e3 3.PAf3-f4 + Ng3-e4 #

II. 1.Sa3-b5 Ng3-c1 + 2.PAf3-g3 c6-c5 3.VAe6-d7 + Ng4-c6 #

Transformation of initial N-N/PAO battery into two new batteries: PAO-N/PAO and VAO-N/PAO. Opening of lines for the white PAO/VAO with the simultaneous vacation of squares for black pieces (NN), Umnov, change of functions of black pieces (NN) and white pieces (PAO/VAO), creation of masced white anti-batteries, model mates through double checks.


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Paul Raican
7 years ago

In this position, Leo g2 could be replaced by a white Pao g3. And in this case, bPc7 is superfluous. (C+)

Dmitri Turevski
Admin
Dmitri Turevski
7 years ago
Reply to  Julia

Seems also to work: -wRa8, -bPb5, +wQa6

Pity it can not be setup with dual avoidance effect by wS arrival: wRg3, wBd8 (instead of Pao and Vao) and wSb3->e6:
1.Se6-d4 Nh3-d1+! (Nh4-f5+?) 2.Rg3-h3 etc. Perhaps this was original intent?

Seetharaman
Seetharaman
7 years ago

Similar dual avoidance effect is there. Now, the arrival effect of the white knight is used instead of non-arrival !

Dmitri Turevski
Admin
Dmitri Turevski
7 years ago
Reply to  Seetharaman

Pardom me, Seetharaman, but i disagree completely.
1.Sb3-d4 / 1.Sb3-c5 has 2 positive effects: guarding b3 and creating a hurdle on g4-b4/e7-b4. No negative effects here.
Dual avoidance is always connected to negative effects (which do not allow duals to work), not present in diagram position, in this case closing of g4-b4/e7-b4 would avoid dualistic checks on these lines.

Paul Raican
7 years ago

The replacement of a Leo with a Pao is just a matter of economy. And the economy is a principle in composition. Now, I have a suggestion to eliminate the Rook a8! (but first I wait your permission)

Paul Raican
7 years ago

Pieces
White VAc8 Sf8 Kg8 Ph7 Sa3 PAf3 Rb1
Black Sf7 Pc6 Pa5 Ka4 Pe4 Ng4 Ng3 PAg1
HS#3 2 sol C+

Dmitri Turevski
Admin
Dmitri Turevski
7 years ago
Reply to  Julia

I think the main problem with B&R setting is not cooks or black second move (line clearance by the black pawn works just fine), but that it requires some different matrix. Look:

Scheme:
[img]http://www.yacpdb.org/xfen/?2B2NK1/5n1P/2pN4/p7/k3p1(n2)1/1p3R(n2)1/1(R3)3P2/6(r3)1[/img]

(in case i have failed the diagram:
white Bc8 Kg8 Pf2h7 Sd6f8 PAb2 Rf3
black Pa5b3c6e4 Sf7 PAg1 Ka4 Ng3g4)

1.Sd6-c4 Ng3-c1 + 2.Rf3-g3 c6-c5 3.Bc8-d7 + Ng4-c6 #
works just fine, but it is the only solution shown by Popeye as
1.Sd6-b5 Ng4-e5+ 2.Bc8-g4 e4-e3 3.Rg3-g4+ Ng3-e4# fails because of 3…Ne5-c4

Dmitri Turevski
Admin
Dmitri Turevski
7 years ago
Reply to  Julia

I think if it’s ok to replace Pao with Kangaroo then this still can be done pretty close to the original setting:
[img]http://www.yacpdb.org/xfen/?r7/3B2PK/6Rp/1B1pp3/P7/1k3p1(n2)/pNNP2R(n2)/3B3(n3)[/img]
hs#3 2.1… C+
h1: Kangaroo, h2, h3: Nightrider

1.Sb2-d3 Nh2-g4 + 2.Rg2-h2 d5-d4 3.Bd7-e6 + Nh3-d5#
1.Sb2-c4 Nh3-f7 + 2.Bd7-h3 f3-f2 3.Rg2-g3 + Nh2-f3#

Dmitri Turevski
Admin
Dmitri Turevski
7 years ago
Reply to  Julia

I’m not sure i would so readily agree about the too high price.

Put it this way: is it ok to use white chinese pieces that do not exhibit anything specific (antibatteries, different move/capture rules etc) just for the sake of light construction?

Dmitri Turevski
Admin
Dmitri Turevski
7 years ago
Reply to  Julia

You should not be sorry at all!

It’s not just that everyone is entitled to have his own view. I believe the controversy of opinions on aestetics and critical thinking donates greatly to the development of problem chess.

It is better to disagree 🙂

Dmitri Turevski
Admin
Dmitri Turevski
7 years ago
Reply to  Julia

The observation that in Vao/Pao setting there’s a choice of delivering the final check either directly or with antibattery, while in B/R setting battery check is not an option is absolutely valid. Well spotted!

A very interesting device and discussion indeed.

Paul Raican
7 years ago

Now, using a white Vao at f8, black Pawn a5 is not necessary.

Paul Raican
7 years ago
Reply to  Julia

: Sincerely, I posted this last sentence only to see your opinion (sorry for that). And was a pleasant surprise to see that your opinion is plenty the same with mine! Congratulations, you really has become a problemist, and one very subtle. And this only after two years of composition.
Now, I have another version: //diagram inserted by Julia, hope you don’t mind!//
[img]http://www.ankona.ch/diagrams/100114.png[/img]
Pieces
White VAc8 Bf8 Kg8 Ph7 Sa3 PAf3 Rb1
Black Pf7 Pc6 Pa5 PAh5 Ka4 Pe4 Ng4 Ng3 PAg1
Stipulation HS#3
The intention is unchanged, but we have here a try:
1.Rb1-d1? Ng4-h6 + 2.Kg8-h8 e4-e3 3.Rd1-d4 + Nh6*d4 + 4.Bh6! Deserves this try a chinese technical piece?

Seetharaman
Seetharaman
7 years ago
Reply to  Julia

I agree. The try is very unconvincing ! I think you have passed this Exam no. 2 also. 🙂

Paul Raican
7 years ago
Reply to  Seetharaman

And Julia was again very convincing … To all, a very good weekend!

Seetharaman
Seetharaman
7 years ago

Thanks Paul Raican, Dmitri Turevski and Julia for an interesting discussion of this problem.

Diyan Kostadinov
Diyan Kostadinov
7 years ago

Interesting problem and discussion. It looks that Dmitri is right that the basic idea can be realised with white orthodox pieces. One example with Forsberg twins:
//diagram inserted by Julia, hope you don’t mind!//

[img]http://www.ankona.ch/diagrams/100115.png[/img]

White: Kg8, Rb1,f3, Be6,f8, Ph7
Black: Ka4, Sf7, Bg4, PAOg1, Nightrider g3, Pa5,c6,e4
HS#2,5 b) g4=Nightrider (6+8) C+

a) 1…Bh5+ 2.Bg4 e3 3.Rf4+ Ne4#
b) 1…Nc1+ 2.Rg3 c5 3.Bd7+ Nc6#

Of course in case of using white orthodox pieces the first white moves by the Knight are eliminated because the hurdle piece is not needed.

By the way – Julia, in your comment about thematic complex you noted “creation of masked white anti-batteries”. Actually there are no “anti-batteries”, there are just checks by Chinese pieces after open of lines. In “anti-battery” the check should be given by playing of the hurdle (front) piece on the thematic line of the rear piece.

Nikola Predrag
Nikola Predrag
7 years ago

The technical details of this discussion are interesting but generally I feel like an alien from another “galaxy”, where some rather different concepts exist.
The idea of the replacement of a black hurdle by a white one on a black battery line is very nice. But the great weakness is inbuilt already in the very mechanism for the realization of the idea – the thematic white hurdels have a superfluous power before the final part of a helpselfmate (s#1) -> there could be Pawns on h4/h3 in the final.

I am still not sure what to think about the combined stipulation h#+s#, but at present I think that in hs#, the “weasels” should be treated more severely than in h#.
Nevertheless, the economy/necessity of the fairy pieces is an intriguing issue. A couple of days ago I tried with exactly the same position with the twin as proposed by Diyan. The change of the thematic black piece is questionable, it seriously decreases the effect of reciprocal functions of thematic black pieces. This provokes a theoretical question, what is the essence of the “Fosberg” twins?
2 different thematic pieces (on the same square in 2 twins) is not a very good way of twinning in principle; 3,4 or more could make the Fosberg twins. But it depends on the content of some particular problem.
The reciprocal functions of Bg4/Ng3 and Ng4/Ng3 in these “Fosberg” twins disappear, actually they never come to existence.

I don’t see white anti-batteries, especially not the masked ones. Model mates through double checks is a concept beyond my understanding.

Bartel Erich
5 years ago

–>PDB P1304851