No.1544
Neal Turner
(Finland)

Original Fairy problems
JF-2020-II:
01.07.2020 - 31.12.2020


Definitions / Определения


No. 1544 Neal Turner
Finland
original - 19.09.2020

white Royal gf4 white Pe4g3c5 Sh2d7 Bc1b1 Ra6 black Ph4h3f2c3c4 Bg2 Sd2a2 black Royal gb6
s#2                       9+9
SAT
Royal Grasshopper f4, b6

Solution: (click to show/hide)



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Seetharaman
Seetharaman
1 month ago
Reply to  Julia

Many of the fairy conditions can also be imagined or defined as attributes (behaviour). For instance we have Circe pieces (instead of Circe chess). Similarly Madrasi pieces.. Actually it is an interesting possibility.

But I agree with Julia that Royal is an attribute to a fairy piece, so promotion is allowed

neal
neal
1 month ago

We use the expression ‘Royal Grasshopper’ meaning a grasshopper with royal attributes, but this is just a convention that’s taken hold. We could just as easily refer to a ‘Grasshopper King’ – a royal piece with grasshopper attributes. This is in fact my preferred designation, using an inverted king as its symbol (notice how I refer to them as ‘kings’ in the commentary). Looking at it from this point of view, promoting to a G doesn’t make any sense.

Luce
Luce
1 month ago

Yes the problem is C- and it is perfectly normal on my opinion…
But if you add “no promotion on fairy pieces” (available on Winchloe) it is C+ !
But it is a big weakness of construction…
Allways un my opinion, the author should find a solution without this additional condition.

Nikola Predrag
Nikola Predrag
28 days ago

Neal is the author and he says there are actually 2 (w+b) ‘Grasshopper Kings’ on the board. In chess, there are no additional ‘non-royal’ Kings, and here, there are no additional ‘non-royal’ ‘Grasshopper Kings’. (In Marine chess, there are no additional ‘non-royal’ Poseidons.)
C- could mean that ‘Grasshopper King’ is perhaps not yet programmed, although such concept of a single ‘Fairy King’ per side is closer to the nature of Chess than a royal piece with additional ‘non-royal’ siblings.

Geoff Foster
Geoff Foster
27 days ago
Reply to  Nikola Predrag

The only difference between Grasshopper Kings and Royal Grasshoppers is that the former does not allow promotion to G. This means that “Grasshopper King” actually is programmed, because it can be tested by using Royal Grasshoppers plus an additional constraint. For example, in Popeye: “condition PromOnly Q R B S”.

Nikola Predrag
Nikola Predrag
26 days ago
Reply to  Geoff Foster

The need of an ‘additional constraint’ suggests that “Grasshopper King” is actually NOT programmed. Do you need an ‘additional constraint’ to exclude promotions into ordinary (non-royal) Poseidons or neutral Kings?
And beside “Grasshopper King”, various types of fairy pieces may be on the board with respective promotions allowed (not only Q R B S).
‘Fairy King’ (or ‘fairy Pawn) is not just a ‘fairy piece’!
Do you need an ‘additional constraint’ to exclude promotions into Berolina Pawns?
If a royal Pawn is just a ‘fairy piece’, can you promote a Pawn into a non-royal fairy Pawn (Dummy)?
There is a pretty standard understanding of Kings and Pawns, and a ‘fairy King’ should have a default meaning, without an ‘additional constraint’ needed.
I’m sorry, this discussion looks to me as a completely upside-down approach, starting from a ‘computer’s view’ (whatever that could possibly mean???).

Geoff Foster
Geoff Foster
26 days ago
Reply to  Nikola Predrag

What I meant was that “Grasshopper Kings” can be put below the diagram and the problem can still be regarded as C+, because it has been tested with Royal Grasshoppers and another constraint. With Popeye the other constraint is “PromOnly Q R B S”. Obviously if the diagram had any non-royal fairy pieces then those fairy pieces would have to be added to the PromOnly statement. It is not necessary for Grasshopper Kings to be added to the solving program, especially as it would have to be done all over again for “Grasshopper Lions”, etc.

Nikola Predrag
Nikola Predrag
26 days ago
Reply to  Geoff Foster

Yes, that’s practical simplification for this one particular case.
However, a general principle should extend the orthodox rules, allowing a choice of KING’s altered moving abilities (as a Grasshopper, Lion, Bishop…), beside the (orthodox) default.
So, for a fairy King you choose King and add e.g. Lion as the moving ability (and not a Lion, adding the royal attributes as for a royal piece).
This could mean that the starting square of a fairy King remains e1(e8), even preserving the castling rights. And some other alterations of orthodox chess could be interesting. For instance, King moving like a Grasshopper and Knights moving like a Nightrider but not actually treated like fairy pieces (as being promoted), e.g. regarding rebirth squares etc..