No.1607
Joost de Heer
(Netherlands)

Original Fairy problems
JF-2021-I:
01.01.2021 - 30.06.2021


Definitions / Определения


No. 1607 Joost de Heer
Netherlands
original - 29.04.2021

neutral pc7b8 black Kb3 white Kd5
++1            2 solutions            1+1+2
Circe Couscous (promotion before rebirth)

Solution: (click to show/hide)



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shankar ram
shankar ram
April 29, 2021 22:05

Interesting coincidence. Bot this and 1608 show a two solution two ply AUW!
This variant not (yet) included in our project.
WinChloe says La promotion précède la capture :
When Pawns capture and promote, it is the promoted piece which is taken into account to determine the rebirth square (Circé couscous, Circé clône…)

Joost
Joost
April 30, 2021 10:59
Reply to  shankar ram

It’s a two-solution 1-ply AUW.
There’s a small variation possible with a different promotion type: Kf4 / Kc3 / Pg7h8 with solutions 1. gh8=nQ(+nPd1=nS]++ and 1. gh8=nB[+nPc1=nR]++
The option ‘Promotion precedes capture’ is a way to explain in which order multiple after-move effects should be processed, and not part of the condition itself.

shankar ram
shankar ram
April 30, 2021 11:20
Reply to  Joost

You’re right, Joost!
This is 1 ply, whreas 1608 is 2 ply.
You should publish your second position as a kind of twin.

Seetharaman
Seetharaman
April 30, 2021 15:03

Black has to help by choosing the correct piece to promote ! How to indicate the help part in the stipulation? 🤔

shankar ram
shankar ram
April 30, 2021 17:05
Reply to  Seetharaman

WinChloe says “…it is the side of the captured Pawn which chooses the promotion”.

Pawn is neutral => belongs to whoever is having the move

White is having the move => Neutral Pawn b8 belongs to White => White chooses what it(as well as NPc7) promotes to! => No need for any “help part” in the stipulation!

Problem is C+ in WinChloe

Last edited 2 months ago by shankar ram
Nikola Predrag
Nikola Predrag
April 30, 2021 17:30
Reply to  shankar ram

Capturing own pieces is a fundamental change in the nature of chess and should be explicitely defined within a particular fairy rule.
White may capture a neutral piece exactly because it is partially black (opponent’s).

shankar ram
shankar ram
April 30, 2021 17:56
Reply to  shankar ram

Some more points:

  • nPc7 can be White
  • Problem is C+ in Popeye by converting it to a #1 as below:

#1 (3+1+1)

CouscousCirce ( No need for the additional condition Promotion before Rebirth)

b8: Neutral Pawn

1.c7*b8=Q[+nPd1=nB] # !

1.c7*b8=R[+nPa1=nS] # !

JdH-#1.png
Last edited 2 months ago by shankar ram
Joost
Joost
April 30, 2021 19:10
Reply to  shankar ram

WinChloe says “…it is the side of the captured Pawn which chooses the promotion”.

No, that’s Circe coucou, not couscous.

Joost
Joost
April 30, 2021 19:08
Reply to  Seetharaman

If the opponent chooses the promotion, it’s called CIrce coucou (and in that case, captures are forbidden if there is a promotion that would lead to selfcheck). For some reason, in Winchloe, promotion is after the rebirth in Couscous, and before the rebirth in coucou. In Popeye, the default for Circe Couscous seems to be promotion before rebirth (but Popeye doesn’t have double-check as stipulation).

Last edited 2 months ago by Joost de Heer
shankar ram
shankar ram
April 30, 2021 18:34

Julia, the link to the FCC project given in the definitions doesn’t work.

Joost de Heer
Joost de Heer
May 4, 2021 12:15

An older version with a neutral Couscous AUW was published in Chessproblems.ca bulletin a few years ago.
ser-#2, Circe Couscous (promotion before rebirth)
1. h8=nS 2. gh8=nB [+nSc1]#
1. h8=nR 2. gh8=nQ[+nRd1]#
It can be changed into a #1 by moving h7 to h8.

couscous.png
Last edited 2 months ago by Joost de Heer